How Can you Be Confident Your Idea is Innovative?

How Do You Know When You’re Being Innovative?

Andy: I was heavily influenced by another thing that Marty shared in The Brand Gap, which is, “How do you know when you’re being innovative,” and you flip the page, and there’s the answer: “It’s when it scares the hell out of everybody else.” I’ve been merchandising that since I got into this business, and it’s just dynamite.

Clients, internal teams, you know, stakeholders, even internal colleagues, your members on your own creative team. There is always a lot more fear about causing fear. I hate to get super nerdy and quote, Dune, but you know, “Fear is the mind killer.” It’s the same thing: fear is a business killer.

If you’re not prepared to take a risk, get out of it and go do something else. But what we’re talking about in this part of living life — trying to build a career, doing the things that we do — risk is a part of it. The first part of my career was in finance. We dealt with risk, but through a very different lens, it was always about an exit. Working in finance, the thing you care about more than profits and returns on your investment are the exit and minimizing risk. Risk is always going to be there. It’s actually a much more interesting way to talk about risk and fear. Instead of instead of trying to mitigate risk, you can flip it upside down and reframe it.

What’s the risk of not trying something? What’s the risk of playing it safe? What’s the risk of sprinting, just to try to keep up with the competition if they’re ahead of you; with the market if it’s getting away from you; or with your customers, however you define them or designed them. If customers are forgetting about you — or even worse than forgetting about you — is commoditizing you. That’s how I like to think about innovation. That’s how I like to think about fear with brand.

With Marty, the two of us have absolutely no fear. The scary thing when I think about it is we’ve been playing it more safely than we’ve wanted to. Recent conversations we’ve had have all been with this tone of like, No, I think it’s time that we can kind of stand up, put our chest out, you know, crack a few knuckles, and, and let’s just let some things fly. And let’s actually get scary. You know, like, let’s get nuts. Right? Sure. We’re going to we’re starting to move in that direction. Like, that’s what we’re so like, excited about?

Brian: I’m glad to hear that because we both see people in the marketplace talking about brand. The company that puts your logo on stuff, they talk about brand. It’s just buzz, buzz, buzz.

Andy: It’s marketing and it’s cool, has a role and look what it can do for for the business and the bottom line. f we did a fraction of the kind of marketing buzz noise and content and all the stuff that everyone else is doing — if we did a fraction of that — I don’t even know where we would be. But it wouldn’t be us. I’m the one who has to go to sleep at night, feeling good, feeling wholesome, feeling genuine and authentic about what we’re doing, and that what we’re doing is genuine and authentic and wholesome.

Brian: You’re talking about this principle that I try to live by: “Nothing to prove, nothing to lose.”

I’ve tried a lot of stuff. 35 years in this business, starting from a designer up to were more of a strategist now. I’ve done a lot of stuff. And I know what I like to do, and I what I’m good at, but I’m not afraid to do to talk to a CEO and say, “If you go down this path, it’s just not going to work.” If they don’t want to hire us, great, there are other people out there, who will and who want that perspective. People who want someone who’s going to be able to say to them, “That’s a bad idea,” or they’re going to want somebody who’s willing to work with them as they’ve got their own vision for growth and help them achieve that. And that’s such a critical part.

Being an Agile Brand

Andy: The nothing to lose the nothing to lose thing: I just want to say, a lot of people in this space tend to be more introverted. I’m sensitive to the to the, to the idea that introverted people are can be even more naturally risk averse. The idea of taking risks; the idea of risky thinking — even just risky creative thinking — let alone risky strategic thinking or business planning can be hard.  Many folks in this space (branding and marketing), constantly looking, almost desperately searching, for ways to be the ways to embrace risk and true innovation, while still being introverted and being themselves. I get it.

You you said something that just made me think about the idea of having nothing to lose. One of the reasons why Marty and I have been able to do what we’ve done and why I especially have been able to do it with him is we’re really a two-man band. I have had this mentality of nothing to lose for quite a while. And I look at it this way: Trying to be gender neutral, but it’s just the way I frame it for myself: The guy with nothing to lose, is more capable and more dangerous than the guy with something to lose. And that’s the way I’ve looked at it and felt it for myself. And that is what has allowed me to put ideas to Marty and put to clients I put agencies I worked for and who were just like, “You’re insane.” That was my pitch to him (Marty). I pitched to him to try this to build this (Level C) with me.

Throughout Marty’s entire career, people have thrown ideas at him to try to get him to collaborate with him. And this was the best idea anyone had brought to him. When he said that I almost started crying in front of former colleagues. It was because I went into that conversation with him and everything we’ve done since and everything we’re going to continue to do. I go into it with that mentality of, “I have nothing to lose.” It’s how I command my brain and my heart and my gut to lead. I follow through that lens of having nothing to lose that makes me more capable and more dangerous than anyone else in our space, who I am just going to assume, have feel like they have something to lose.

Brian: I completely agree. And as you’re talking through that, the first part of that phrase hit me: I have nothing to prove, and therefore, I have nothing to lose. You’ve proven yourself in these ideas, this whole perspective, not only on brand, but on business and on leadership. It’s valid and people will buy into it. You’ve proven it so there’s no need to prove it anymore. There’s nothing to prove.

Let’s close on a couple personal things. Your LinkedIn profile says you’re a multi-instrumental musician. What does that mean? What do you play?

Andy: I play several instruments, but I don’t play all of them well, but I can play them. My principal instrument is drums and percussion. But I can play piano, guitar, bass, other stringed instruments. I played saxophone and clarinet once upon a time. I went to music school and studied music.

It’s interesting when I talk about Level C a lot. Our approach to teaching people how to think about it. I was heavily inspired by my experiences in music school and as a musician, especially after music school, because music school taught me how to not just how to think about music, but how to listen to music, and how to think about what I was hearing. There’s this great quote, and I feel so rotten. I don’t remember who said it, one of my professors in music school, said it on the very first day of the very first class that I took in a class called ear training. And everyone had to take it. And I was like, “I’m a drummer, man, I don’t what do I need this for?” 

He said (paraphrased), “Good musicians play with their fingers or mouths, but great musicians play with their ears.” And when he said that on the first day, I was all in. I spent my time in music school trying to train my ears and learn how to think about music so that after I left music school, I could teach myself if I heard something new. I still do it today.

The other thing that influenced my thinking was I’m a recovering law school student. I’m not a lawyer, but I was in law school. And the thing about law school is, is the other thing that influenced how we do Level C is that law school doesn’t teach you how to be a lawyer. Law School teaches you how to think like a lawyer, you finish law school, that means you’re qualified to take the bar exam, pass the bar exam, and start practicing law. That’s why they call it practicing law. That’s how you become a lawyer. And so that’s those two experiences being a musician and a recovering law school student is has is what has influenced how Marty and I have designed and approach everything that we do in level C. It’s so relevant to brand and branding.

Brian: I also use the music analogy. I’m a rhythm section guy. We both know that it’s really the bass and the drums that are holding the band together because without the beat without the rhythm the band is all over the place.

Andy: They are and that’s, and that’s, you know, again, coming back to risk. And coming back to, you know, feeling like you, you can approach this with nothing to lose, when the rhythm section screws up, — especially the drummer — when the rhythm section screws up, everyone knows. If you’re playing melody, if you’re playing harmony, you can get away with stuff and most people won’t know. But when the drummer falls in and out of time — presses ahead, slips behind, misses a beat, drops a stick, hits a crash so hard that it goes over, (which I’ve done) — there’s no hiding behind that. I embrace it, I love that kind of all or nothing all in, you know, balls to the wall. You know, there’s, there’s “The car is off,” or there’s fifth gear and I’m comfortable with that. So, but music, music is a great analogy. And in the past, when I hire people, for teams, or interview people, at agencies for to be to be on my team. One of the questions I always ask is, you know, do you play any musical instruments? I find that musicians, especially in this space, have a unique way of embracing the thought process aside from just been naturally creative. If you’re a musician, you work in brand, like, contact me; contact Brian; we probably want to work with you.

There are no Shortcuts to Brand Strategy

Brian: I think that’s where I was headed with my thought before I took the rabbit trail is how we use brand guidebooks. A Brand Guidebook is like a songbook for your staff. Everybody’s singing from the same song book, in harmony, everybody’s going to have their different parts. But this is what’s going to weave everything together in harmony so that you all even though you’re sharing different stories, you all have the same message.

Andy: I take that I like that a lot. I’m I may steal it, but I’ll give you full credit because I haven’t heard that before. I like that.

Brian: We’re all just interchanging ideas here. The people who pass through the Level C program and become certified are all going to be singing from the same songbook, because it’s up to us to help educate and re-educate a marketplace.

Andy: I hope so. It’s tricky because there are some folks who struggle, even coming out of our class. And I think the reason is because people naturally are inclined to look for shortcuts. There are no shortcuts with this (brand discipline and brand strategy). There are no shortcuts to thinking let alone thinking, applying, refining, being objective and honestly receptive to performance. What do you need to do next? Do you need to take a step back? Do you need to revisit a concept you need to kind of roll up your sleeves and just focus on one thing or another?

I’m really confident in the value, utility, and relevance, and just the nuclear power of what we think, what we teach, and what we use on a daily basis. I have unwavering confidence about that.

Brian: You know, we talked about fear earlier: Without fear and without risk, there would be no need for courage.

Andy: Courage is the thing that lets you take action in spite of fear. This is the this is the most human part of business. Brand is the most human, the most, most personable part of business. It’s not enough to just say that, and for someone to hear it, and say, “Oh, I totally agree.” Because we’re talking about people — because we’re talking about humanity — we’re talking about the humanity of business. It’s not black and white. It’s not simple. It is super cerebral. It’s psychological. If I could go back and do one thing over again, I would have majored in psychology. I would have delayed music school and either pursued a masters or PhD in psychology, consumer psychology, or consumer behavior. Because this is not at all a game not of creativity, or of anything else. This is all about people and psychology.

Brian: You’re saying the same thing I’ve told people: We should have been have taught more in design school about business, and they should have layered in some psychology degrees, especially around behavior design and behavioral psychology. With that in mind, I want to give you a recommendation of a book, It has been transformative for me. It’s called Marketing to Mindstates by Will Leach. It’s all about applying behavior design to research and marketing. At Aespire, we  apply behavior design to the brand strategy disciplines and to the StoryBrand marketing work we do in Northeast Ohio and for our global clients.

It considers goals and motivations or mores. Then we seek to understand the consumers mindstate in terms of how they approach decision making, are they cautious or optimistic, and what are their triggers? What are the triggers that that compel them to purchase? Will Leach simplifies it so I can find simple approaches to apply these principles into your work and brand discipline.

Andy, thank you for your time. I know you’re super busy. I appreciate you; I appreciate the perspective you bring to the level C program. And I just want to thank you for joining me here because I look up to you. Just as I look up to Marty, you both bring such a valuable perspective to people like me.

Andy: I appreciate it. This was awesome. I’ve enjoyed this conversation, I enjoy you and I look up to you for among other things, your genuine intellectual curiosity and your commitment to working through the process of thinking about this stuff. I know that you value your own thought capital and thought labor into the courses that you’ve taken, the books that you’ve read, and even the work that you’re doing, and it’s one of the reasons why Aespire Brands is 25 years old. For all of you listening out there, Brian is living proof, well beyond me — up there with Marty — for the value of intellectual curiosity, and putting time and thought into what you hear what you read and what you’re producing on a daily basis. So this has been a true a true treat for me.

In Part One, Andy Starr and Brian Sooy talk about who really owns your brand.  If it’s not you, then what’s your role in branding?